Teacher Leadership in Civic Education

The invaluable expertise of classroom teachers is the foundation of effective civic education, as demonstrated by three veteran educators who share their experiences developing curriculum that truly engages students.

• Teachers know their students better than anyone, allowing them to create curriculum that addresses knowledge gaps
• Post-COVID classrooms present unique challenges that only current teachers fully understand
• Teachers should not shy away from controversial topics but instead use primary sources to help students form opinions
• Professional networks and connections significantly enhance teaching effectiveness
• "Chunking" lessons into 12-15 minute segments keeps students engaged, especially in today's attention-challenged environment
• Administrators must trust teachers' judgment and provide meaningful support
• Teacher-developed curriculum is more practical and effective than lessons created by those distant from classrooms
• Building mentor relationships is crucial for new teachers facing the challenges of the profession

Want to expand your professional network? Reach out to Liz Evans at lizevans@asu.edu to connect with experienced educators who can support your civic education journey.

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Chapters

• 1:40 Introduction to Teacher Cohort Members
• 7:20 Teachers' Role in Curriculum Development
• 15:20 Taking Ownership of Civic Education
• 25:20 Teacher Voice in Educational Policy
• 32:40 Building Networks for Better Teaching
• 47:00 Advice for New Teachers and Leaders
• 56:01 Final Thoughts on Teacher Impact

Transcript

Liz: 0:50

I am. I always say I'm excited, but I feel like anytime I talk to teachers it is exciting for me because these are the boots on the ground. This is where we have kind of our front line of civic education and today we are talking to three members of the civic literacy teacher cohort and we're talking about teacher leadership in civics and I'm excited to have these guests. They span the country and they also span what they teach. So I will have our first guest, deb, if you want to go ahead and introduce yourself for our podcast listeners.

Deb: 1:30

My name is Deb Masker and I spent numerous years in the classroom in Council Bluffs Public Schools, which is along the Missouri River. I have served as an instructional coach focused in social studies, and also the international baccalaureate coordinator, and this year I've transitioned to a new role and I am working with the teacher intern program through Morningside University, and so when I started this program, I was in the classroom and now I am working with teachers in the classroom. This is my first year doing that.

Liz: 2:13

For those of you who do not know where Council Bluffs is, it is in the great state of Iowa where. I was born and still very much have lots of love for that state, so I'm very happy we have two Iowa teachers on our cohort. Kristy, what about you?

Kristy: 2:33

Well, I'm originally from Michigan, so that's where I was born and raised, but now I currently live in Arizona. I've been teaching eighth grade social studies for the past 19 years and honor social studies avid, even PE, sprinkled in along the way. I've worked many years with the Arizona Law and Legal Foundation, also with iCivics. I've had the opportunity to help write curriculum for the World War II Museum and I think the most probably proud educator moment, I guess, for me is becoming a nationally board certified teacher. Also, I'm a James Madison fellow and I just love to teach, so I love to mentor and I just love to inspire students to think critically about the world around them.

Liz: 3:31

Yes, Kristy is our James Madison Fellow, also another National Board Certified Teacher.

Craig: 3:36

Speaking of James Madison Fellows and Michigan Craig, I'll have you introduce yourself teaching now for 29 years and this is actually my last year, believe it or not and I did my undergraduate work at Central College in Pella.

Craig: 4:04

Iowa.

Craig: 4:04

So there's an Iowa connection as well. Got to connect everybody together here in our meeting. And what I teach typically is I've been teaching AP US history now for gosh 15, 16 years. I think. I actually started off teaching French many, many, many years ago, but I also I know, right, total change. But I also teach regular US history. I've taught civics and economics and world history history. I've taught civics and economics and world history.

Craig: 4:37

I also developed a class on World War II and the Holocaust that I've taught to upperclassmen and I really enjoy teaching that class because it allows students to really explore a topic that they're really interested in much more in depth, unlike, you know, ap US history where it's like, okay, it's Tuesday, so it's World War II, now let's do something else. You know, yes, other things that I've done as well as I've worked very closely with National History Day over the years, not just as a participant but as a I've taken. I've had students enrolled in some of their programs. I went to Normandy and did research on World War II veterans. I also do some work with them, helping mentor teachers across the country. I've written curriculum with the Pilecki Institute in Warsaw, poland, about the Holocaust and also for resistance to totalitarian regimes. So I try to get out there as much as I can, to you know, make a difference in helping teachers be able to access good materials.

Liz: 5:48

I love that and I. So this is a complete aside, but I am Craig's friend on Duolingo and I know that you've been doing years of Polish and you are actually the reason I have such a long streak in Spanish, because I'm like I need to get there. So I love, I love watching the teachers I know learning and growing personally, because I know that that also helps them grow professionally. So thank all three of you for being here. I again this is, I think, one of my favorite parts of the job is to be able to talk to teachers. So our first question teachers know their students in their classrooms better than anyone. And, Kristy, I'm sure when we talk about this too, this is one of the tenets of the national boards. Why do you think it's so important for educators to have leadership roles in curriculum development rather than just following pre-made lessons? And, deb, I'm going to start with you on this question.

Deb: 6:50

Well, I have been involved in Council Bluffs writing social studies curriculum two different times and we rewrite curriculum every seven years.

Deb: 7:02

And so for me, having that in classroom, working with students every day, knowing their strengths, knowing what skills they come to us lacking a little bit in, what skills they come to lacking a little bit in it, allows me to help with the curriculum development to help meet those needs that are gapping and to capitalize on those skills that they have that are excellent, and I'm sure that the school district I worked in is not different from others across the nation.

Deb: 7:43

But in elementary school, unfortunately, they get a taste of social studies and a taste of science and they may have social studies for 45 minutes for an entire week, and so when they come to us at the middle school, a lot of their skills are not there. So we have to help bring them up to speed, whether it's reading primary documents or those kinds of things. So being able to assess my students' skills and know where they're at and where we want them to become, that really drives the curriculum development. And, as all good teachers will tell you, they rewrite lessons and rewrite curriculum every single day to meet the needs of their students. So when I have an opportunity to do that or be a part of a group that's doing that, I feel like I am tapping into my students and listening to them and where they need to grow and develop and then help that curriculum build those skills.

Liz: 8:44

I love that, Craig. What about you?

Craig: 8:49

It is really important for us to be part of that curriculum development process. Really important for us to be part of that curriculum development process. Obviously, what we're doing here over the course of the past year, you know, we are doing kind of pre-made lessons. That's what we're doing. But because, you know, pre-made lessons aren't inherently bad, it's how they're produced and I think all of us have been. We have worked with pre-made lessons that come with textbooks. That's like who? Who designed this?

Craig: 9:19

You know, this person has not seen a classroom in like 20 years, you know, and expectations for not only the students but for the teachers is just so out there. It's like how can? I would expect us to do this in three days. This is something that would take three weeks, you know. They just don't have the connection with the classroom. And so I think, you know, actually having classroom teachers who are currently working with students, who know student strengths and weaknesses, kind of like what Deborah was saying, but also know the constraints that they have within their own classroom, within their own district, within their own community, having them develop lessons that really fit and work for them, I think is invaluable, and so the more that classroom teachers are involved in working with curriculum development, I think the more useful these lessons will be and the more people actually will use them and not have to modify things to make it fit, because it's like, look at this, like, yep, this is something that'll work because a teacher actually developed it.

Liz: 10:27

And I think to post-COVID, because I left the classroom in 2020. So my last semester was right, as everything was kind of shutting down. I will never pretend to know what a post COVID classroom looks like, because I've never taught in one right, even though I have 17 years of teaching. I have a lot of experience. I don't know what that post is, and I think that that is one of for me as a professional having people that are in the classroom who know like, yeah, maybe this lesson would have worked in 2017, but in 2025, this is not working, because the students in front of me are working with different gaps, they're working with lots of different things.

Craig: 11:11

Yes, I agree. The post-COVID world is so completely different, so if you haven't been teaching since, then developing effective lessons will be challenging.

Liz: 11:24

Absolutely Kristy. What does that look like for you?

Kristy: 11:37

was going to address what you just said, liz.

Kristy: 11:38

I think the biggest difference of having teachers develop those lessons is that we know our students and nobody else does, and that COVID gap is real. And if you weren't teaching in that time then it's really hard to know how to address those students because we're acting as though those students are the same and those students aren't. Every year our students are different and we feel that are the same and those students aren't. Every year our students are different and we feel that in the classroom and we can't really build on curriculum until we know the needs of our students. It is perfect. As soon as you said that, I thought of National Board and it's really the foundation, right? What do our students know and how do we know our students? And once we're able to achieve that, then we can reach out to them. But if we are not tapping into that knowledge base of knowing who our students are and those gaps in their learning, then we can't possibly even begin to create the curriculum that is going to reach them and actually start to change their learning.

Liz: 12:40

Absolutely, and I'm trying to remember the. I think it is teachers know their students and how to teach content to those students. And and it is I mean I, Kristy and I taught in the same district for a really long time. We both taught middle school and even I mean year to year, my kids were different, but even class to class kids are different. So, yes, I might be teaching about, you know, the fundamentals of the constitution, but the way I have to change that for every class to make sure and Deb brought this up too you have to address the holes that they might have from elementary school school, and so I think that one of the gifts that teachers have that often get overlooked is not only do they know their content, but they're looking at these 30 plus people in front of them and saying, okay, I need to make sure they all get it. How can I frame this and scaffold this to make sure that that happens?

Kristy: 13:31

Absolutely. I think that's it's imperative. If you're going to develop curriculum, you have to have a teacher that is in the classroom, that is current not only with current students, but also with current events. Right, the way that our world works is that it's ever changing and we need to be able to keep up on those changes and continue to be lifelong learners, like we want our students to be continue to be lifelong learners, like we want our students to be, absolutely so.

Liz: 13:58

My second question, then how has being part of the civic literacy curriculum teacher cohort allowed you to take ownership of civic education? I think that and I'm again I'm so tired of the word unprecedented, but I can't think of any other way to say like it just feels like every time we turn on the news or you know anything, there's things happening that are just it's moving so fast. And can you share any experiences where your expertise because you are all experts in different things how that directly influenced the curriculum that we created? Craig, I will start with you.

Craig: 14:33

All right, you know, as far as taking ownership in civic education, you know, as I've been reaching the end of my teaching career, I've been looking more and more to try to give back, you know, to help future teachers, because I know, when I started off, I wasn't creating curriculum, I was relying on other people provided for me and oftentimes it wasn't that great, you know, and so I want to leave the world a better place as I am exiting education, and so for me being able to, you know, review these lessons and see the care that everybody has put into these lessons to make sure that they are accessible to the teachers, that we can do these things, that the students can actually be engaged and really learn from the lessons, it's been really awesome to be part of that, seeing the incredibly creative things that teachers were coming up with.

Craig: 15:45

I have no doubt that these lessons will be incredibly successful with students. So I'm really looking forward to hearing in the future how these things actually turn out. I wish I actually would be able to use them myself, but you know I'll be relaxing, maybe somebody will ask you.

Liz: 16:03

maybe somebody will ask you someday like, hey, craig, do you have a really good lesson on the judiciary? And you can be like maybe I don't right now because I'm out of the classroom. I have gone to a new portion of my life but I know that these lessons exist because I've looked at them, I've reviewed them and I've had that experience.

Craig: 16:21

Exactly, and this is something that you know. When teachers one of my colleagues, people I meet from around the country ask about where do I go to get good lessons, this is definitely going to be one of the places I'm directing them to, because this stuff is peer reviewed. It is good stuff. I am so happy to be part of this.

Liz: 16:41

And speaking of expertise and lessons, Kristy, one of my, I mean, I loved I really did love the process of putting these all on the website because I got to read every single one. And, Kristy, you created a government unit, kind of this mini jigsaw that I feel just knowing you from all the years that we've known each other and worked together, that's kind of your jam. So can you kind of talk about that a little bit for our listeners?

Kristy: 17:14

Yeah, absolutely. I think. When we are talking about learners and how they've changed, I think learners need to be hands-on. We need to get students to be able to interact with what we want them to know and how to relate it to their own lives, and I think Jigsaw is one of the best FXx sizes to be able to get students, so it just seemed natural for me to put it and have students be part of a mini government.

Kristy: 17:44

Um, not only do I love to have those students be interactive in their learning, but I think it's just so important for them to know our own civics.

Kristy: 17:53

Uh, as I take students outside of the United States, it gives us a really great way to compare different government systems and making it relevant and knowing that this government is not just something they're learning because we're memorizing information or learning about, you know, people who died a long time ago. Civics is alive and it's running right now in front of our eyes. So I think getting them to know that there's a relevancy in that, that is something that they can interact with on a daily basis. I mean, I think, liz, you said something like we can't even turn on the TV without seeing something civic related, and I think it really is our job as social studies teachers in general to give students a voice Right. It's not about what we think, but it's about them developing their own civic person and I think that can just be really powerful. And I think unfortunately, sometimes because of the political climate, I think teachers shy away from these difficult topics. But it's really not about what we think. It's about students being able to develop their own thoughts absolutely.

Liz: 19:00

We're teaching them how to think, not what to think, and that is it's such an important thing, because then, no matter you know what comes up in the news, with whatever administration is in charge, we have a way to talk about it. It's again based in primary sources, it's based in founding documents, and we allow students to blossom from that. Deb, I feel like now that you are helping you are in the classroom and now you're helping teachers. How does that work for you with your experience doing that, and how it's influencing curriculum? Because now you're working with teachers.

Deb: 19:43

Well, I think it's really important, at least for me, that teachers have a group of professionals that they can work with and count on, that they can plan with, and I was fortunate enough in my former school district to meet with PLCs twice a week on a regular basis and we were able to collaborate and work together to develop really were able to work with each other, review each other's lessons and help each one of us develop the best lesson that we can possibly develop for a particular standard within the civics curriculum. I was just totally amazed at I did the three to five and at the creative ways that teachers approached those students and their needs and different ways to keep them engaged. I really appreciate what Kristy said about jigsawing. That's one of my favorite ways for students to work in the classroom. But I also challenge teachers to think about chunking their lessons and trying to do a different kind of activity every 15, 12 to 15 minutes. And I taught middle school for years and our classrooms were excuse me, our class periods were an hour long, which was a gift. But how can we keep them engaged, keep them moving forward and keep them listening, and I work really hard with teachers every single day to have them keep that engagement in mind and how can we bring that to them? I was in a classroom today where students were working on different regions of the United States Amazingly, that's part of the curriculum and I was going oh, I have things that go with that and shared them with those people. Had I known that that's exactly what they were going to be working on before I went to the classroom, I would have been a little bit better prepared to share things. But I shared things when I left and kids were excited about learning about the different regions of the United States and what things were unique to each of those reasons.

Deb: 22:13

I want to piggyback on what you said about not shying away from difficult topics. I still am in contact with my PLCs from my former school district and oftentimes I will get phone calls asking me how I would approach a particular controversial topic that came through the news. And we go back to those founding documents, those primary sources, and say what did the founding fathers put in the constitution? Why are these things in place and why are they still relevant today? And I think our students are being challenged to go back to those documents and to look at what those ideas were and how, 250 years later, those principles still ring true and how important it is to understand those things.

Deb: 23:09

I know the three branches of government and the balance of power is very much in play right now. And so what did the document say? What do we know has worked in the past? And how is today different? And I'm not saying it's better, worse. I'm just saying and how is today different? And let the kids form their opinions. We can show them the documents, help them understand, help them read the primary sources and then, ultimately, they have to make and devise their own opinions.

Liz: 23:46

Absolutely. And even looking at Federalist 51, I think that I used to think with my eighth graders well, that's too hard for them to read, they can't do it and they can. And the more you dive into those documents with them and have that productive struggle and look at, you know what did Madison say? And there's just so much more to explore. And I think that kids really like that because they are used to TikTok, they're used to these quick things, but having the ability to work through a question and, you know, talk to their peers and have a teacher facilitating and guiding, I do think students still really enjoyed that. So curricular development is often seen as something that's done at the district or the state level. What are some ways that teachers can advocate for their voices to be heard in shaping what students learn and how they learn? And, Kristy, I will start with you.

Kristy: 24:48

I think it's important to get involved. I think a lot of times the complaints usually come from teachers who aren't involved in the process of what's happening. For example, in my district we're doing common unit assessments, right, so I can sit back and I can go oh gosh, I just what's going to be on these unit assessments, what are they going to look like? Or I can be a voice at the table to help develop, you know, these different units, just like our literacy curriculum that we were able to develop through ASU.

Kristy: 25:19

Being able to be part of that seat at the table, I think is so powerful when you have educators that come together. It's beautiful the things that we can create, especially having this cohort that has people across the country coming from different backgrounds and different experiences. It's just such a wealth of knowledge that we can learn from one another. And when we can learn from one another, then we can take those experiences back to our students. I really love going back to you know. Chunking those lessons is so very important for our kids of today because they're the you know generation of being entertained, especially since COVID, a lot of these kiddos grew up with you know, technology in their hands all the time and so being able to collaborate and get involved. Then we can be part of the solution instead of just stating the problem.

Liz: 26:14

I love that and I think that you don't have to have a title to be a leader. That is, I think. Sometimes people think, well, I have to be a department head, I have to be something else and you don't Deb. What are your thoughts?

Deb: 26:28

Well, I agree with what Kristy said. I said I think as teachers we have to advocate for our students and we also have to advocate for ourselves. The district that I was a part of has district assessments in social studies and they were created by a non-classroom teacher and when we were first handed them I think aghast was the best word that I could come up with Um and we um put our feet down and stood strong and were able to make changes in those district assessments because we wanted to make sure that the skills were being assessed, but in a way that our kids could also feel um good about themselves, that they had knowledge and had the original questions stayed in place. Our kids would have felt pretty hopeless with those tests. Now, would they be a great goal to strive for with some of the way that the skills questions were written? Absolutely, and are we giving up on getting to that point? No, but you have to know where your kids are at and what they can understand and when you ask a question of which they have no background knowledge, have no concept of what the question is about in the historical context, they can't do the skill. So we just have to really listen to the teachers and listen to those people that are in the classroom and give them credit for what they do know, and you can be that voice in your PLCs in your district.

Deb: 28:20

At the state level, I know the state of Iowa is going through another curriculum revision and they asked for people to volunteer and I volunteered as a community member. Haven't heard back if I'm in the group or not, that's neither here nor there but I wanted to make sure that there was a community member that had some semblance of knowledge of social studies curriculum so that voice could be heard in the writing of the state new curriculum. So I just think you have to advocate for yourself and you have to advocate for your students so that they can become successful.

Liz: 29:03

I love that and I love talking about standards, because I mean every state has to go through standards review and they do ask for teachers, they ask for community members, and so that's really powerful. Craig, what does it look like for you?

Craig: 29:19

I think, going back to what Kristy had said, it's important to get involved. You just have to get yourself, put yourself out there, let your administration know that you want to take part in this process. Volunteer, where you can Get involved on committees, like I know within my own district, like there are curriculum steering committees at various levels and sometimes they have a hard time getting enough teachers actually on those committees, which to me is a is a crime. It's like if you want to have better curriculum, if you want to have a voice, you have to, you have to get involved and do that. And because as teachers, we need to feel ownership in what we're doing, to actually really feel passionate about it. If we're just given something that we know that it was developed by someone who's not really a classroom teacher, who just is kind of check, you know, checking the boxes to make sure this is done, then it's not going to be very successful. But if we know that either we or our close colleagues are getting involved in these committees to help develop this curriculum that we're using in our classrooms, it's going to be so much more effective in the long run.

Craig: 30:35

Also, in my district we have at least in my building. We have something called Critical Friends, which is kind of like a PLC type of environment where teachers are encouraged to come together once a month and just share ideas like what's been successful in the classroom, what have we been doing that works, what are some good resources that we found online or in various other places that we can share with one another to be more successful in the classroom. And I think doing something like that, even just kind of bypassing administration in some ways, can be really helpful, but also then sharing that with administration saying hey, we as teachers, we have found this, we're using this. It's successful. You know, can you allow us to do more things like this? So I think that that's one of a good way of advocating for yourselves.

Liz: 31:29

And I think good administrators appreciate when teachers take the initiative to say here, you know, in our PLC, here's something that we've tried. Can we get more backing on this? I think that there are administrators really good administrators out there that are like there are administrators really good administrators out there that are like absolutely, this sounds awesome.

Liz: 31:50

Let me you know and all of this leads to my next question. You know, collaboration is really key to building strong curriculum. How is working with other educators whether it's through our cohort or your own networks, because you all have your own networks how has that helped strengthen your approach to civic education? So I know I mean my network is very large because over two decades it just builds. Craig, I met you for the first time in 2016 at Ashland University.

Craig: 32:19

It has been a while.

Liz: 32:21

It has. Wow, that has been a long time and you know, Kristy, we've worked together. Deb, this is our first time working together and I definitely know that it's not going to be our last, because these networks kind of build. So how is working with different educators, whether it's in your state or out of the state? Help strengthen your approach to civic education and, Deb, I'll start with you on this one.

Deb: 32:51

Well and I went to Ashland in 2019. I was not a James Madison fellow, but I was a Buchholz scholar for a week and probably one of my greatest learning experiences that I had a different way to approach a college education class a history education class. It was on Jefferson and I just really appreciate the opportunity at Ashland. It's important to have those networks. I've been blessed with the opportunities of going to the George Washington Teachers Institute, the Mount Vernon Teachers Institute and the White House Teachers Institute in the past couple of years and those people that I have met at those organizations and through that week-long experience at each one of those have helped my network grow tremendously. I have a dear friend in Columbia, south Carolina, that I sat next to at the George Washington Teachers Institute, at the George Washington Teachers Institute, and we now plan and have presented at the National Council of History of Education Conference, not this year but the last two years, and that network grew because of those experiences. So I think being able to talk to other teachers, see what they're doing in the classroom, pick their brains, for lack of a better way to say it. What are you doing and how are you meeting this needs for children and what kind of chunking do you do and how do you get engagement? All of those are so important, but it's really important in today's world that our students have a really good understanding of civic education and so being able to be a part of those networks and go to those different learning experiences I brought back such a wealth of new understanding materials to use in the classroom to the teachers in my district.

Deb: 35:04

One day they said are you ever going to be quiet about what you learned? And I said no, I'm not. I'm so excited, nope. And so those things are important and teachers, at least in my former district, loved when I would come in and team teach with them and work through different things that I had experienced and especially with being able to tie those things to the civic education that we do in American history in eighth grade just is a great way to collaborate and to build those networks.

Deb: 35:47

Build those networks and you know Facebook is not great for a lot of things, but Facebook is great for continuing to have those connections. So now I know somebody at the LBJ library and I know someone who knew May Cryer, who was a Rosie the Riveter and is 98 years old, and my National History Day student got to speak with her last year over Google Meet and she got to hear about this wonderful woman's experience as a woman in World War II. She talked about, you know, growing from that experience and, you know, when she was able to step out on her own. I just think all those networks are so important and keeping those connections with those people will just help you grow as a teacher.

Liz: 36:35

A thousand percent and it's, I think, one of my very favorite things about civics, social studies, history teachers is I never feel like I'm in competition. I always feel like I'm a competitive mate, like we're all in this together. So if I, if I am struggling with something, I, I I actually think I've text Craig to be like hey, because we also went to the National Constitution Center and tried new coffee shops in Philadelphia and, craig, you have a huge network as well, so not only the Madison Network, but you've been to so many different professional developments and I feel like your network is enormous. So how has that kind of helped you?

Craig: 37:22

Oh, my, I can't even begin to explain how much it's helped me I mean, when I first started, when I transitioned from teaching French to teaching high school history and civics and everything else, I really felt isolated and alone, because the people in my department, in my high school, at that point in time, they're all older, they really didn't care. They're basically like, well, you have a in time, they're all older, they really didn't care. They're basically like, well, you have a textbook and the lesson plans there, what else do you need? And so I went out and found the opportunities for myself. That's when I started getting involved in the NEH and National History Day Gilder Lehrman, all the other great resources out there, and sort of making those connections, and that made me realize that history, education, civics education can be exciting and there are people out there who are passionate about it and who are constantly trying to make the curriculum better every single year.

Craig: 38:26

You know, one thing I started doing very early on was I got rid of, like, my lesson plan book that you know teachers would pull out the lesson plan book and use the same lessons every year, year after year yes.

Craig: 38:36

No, every single year it's kind of like from scratch. What am I going to do this year? How's it going to be different? How's it going to be better? It's kind of like from scratch. What am I going to do this year? How's it going to be different? How's it going to be better?

Craig: 38:49

And I rely on my friends that I've met through these networks to help me in that process. You know there are, like my Normandy Institute, people from National History Day. We went to Normandy together back in was it 2019? I think it was so what six, seven years ago now? And we text each other every single day. We have a group chat and we will go in there and say, hey, I'm teaching this, what ideas do you have? What websites do you know I can go to, as well as other? You know we just, you know, talk about random subjects as well, but you know, having that source I can go to is amazing. You know, having you as a resource. You know we met, like you said, in 2016 at Ashland and we've kept in contact and you know that's made teaching so much more enjoyable to me and I can't imagine doing this and being as passionate as I've been in history and civics education without these connections.

Deb: 39:49

I went to the National History Day Sacrifice for Freedom in the Pacific in 2023. And those connections again, as Craig said, we talk to each other all the time, we text each other, we email each other and again, it's that additional way for your network to grow. It was an amazing experience with my student, amazing research experience to be able to prepare that eulogy for the fallen soldier from Council Bluffs but, at the same time, to work with all of the other teachers over the course of the semester as we prepared. Those are just experiences and friendships and collegiality that you cannot find anywhere else.

Liz: 40:46

And I'm like you, deb. I was not a Madison Fellow. I got a scholarship to do one class and for any teacher out there, that's like I don't want to go alone, like what if I don't know anybody? I went to Ashland University and I didn't know anybody.

Liz: 41:02

And Craig and Linda and Kim, and my old government teacher, lisa Adams, who has passed, and my old government teacher, lisa Adams, who has passed just everybody opens their arms and I feel like my favorite thing I mean my favorite thing about social studies teachers is that open arm and like, yes, let's bring you in and you can go to these things alone.

Liz: 41:38

And, like you said, you leave and you have all these group chats and you have emails and you have new Facebook friends and the one reason I've kept Facebook is because that's how I keep in touch with of my favorite. My favorite stories is that you and I showed up to, you know, hta and our girls are now in kindergarten together, but we taught in the same district and we we did a lot of the same professional developments. But you are a Madison fellow, you are a national board certified teacher, so you have that you know expansive network as well. So how has that worked for you Because you are also girl, a world traveler, and every break I am watching your Instagram to see where you're going with your family, cause it's just so fun.

Kristy: 42:25

Yeah, I mean it's hard to really add much more to you know no-transcript something powerful that happens when you travel and you learn, because you become bonded to these people who maybe you just met a few days ago but all of a sudden have now become like lifelong friends. It is it's hard to really explain unless you've actually gone through it yourself or have traveled somewhere yourself. And I think maybe that's why I do love to take students and people across different countries and nations. Because of that, and people across different countries and nations because of that, I don't know that learning right, that learning happens and it's just so real and tangible. And I mean, even on this podcast, just listening to Deb and Craig talking about their experiences, I'm already learning and passionate about what they're doing and thinking. Oh, that sounds so cool. I think.

Kristy: 43:48

Also I want to talk about, like what you're saying is it's not really a competitive thing, it's more of a wow, that's so fascinating. Let me look that up. I would like to be interested in that too. Or that sounds amazing Like I want to become a better educator in that field or in that you know type of unit or of study that maybe you didn't even consider before. So I think I don't know. I just think there's something that happens at these places where we get to meet other educators that are passionate and super nerdy Like I'm a super nerd and I can't help it but when we get together we nerd out and we can't help but really have those bonds that are created in these moments and it's just really cool and it's inspiring. Honestly, when I meet other people, I find inspiration. Every time I meet someone and hear their story and you know, and it challenges me to be a better person. Honestly.

Liz: 44:48

I love that. And, craig, I do want to go back to what you said, because I so I taught in the same district as Kristy for 11 years. I moved to a new district, I taught AP government and I felt incredibly isolated because there was no other AP government teacher on my campus and I think that everyone thought well, you've been a teacher for a long time, you're nationally board certified, you're fine, and I was drowning and it genuinely was things like going to Ashland. We took a class on political parties and I learned more in expanding that and teaching doesn't have to be so isolating.

Liz: 45:26

Okay, so if you could give advice to school leaders and policymakers about how to better support teacher-led curriculum development, what would you say? Or I'll give you an alternative question for that new teacher who is either new to the subject, new to teaching in general, regardless of age, because we have a lot of people who come in as second career teachers what advice would you give them? And there's been so much good advice here, but you are all veterans and you're all experts at what you do and in your classroom. So I want to leave our listeners with advice. And, craig, I'm going to start with you, my friend, all right.

Craig: 46:09

If I were to give advice to school leaders, I would say the biggest piece of advice is trust your teachers. Trust your teachers. Trust your teachers. They're the ones who are in the classroom with the students every single day. They know their students, they know their strengths, they know their weaknesses. They know their own personal strengths and weaknesses.

Craig: 46:37

And so if a teacher comes to you and says I'm looking for more resources, I want to expand my network, I want to find better ways of teaching this. Trust them and encourage them in that process. Direct them towards National History Day. Direct them towards all these great places that are out there. Direct them to senior teachers who maybe have gone through the process like me, for example, in my building. I'm the most senior person in my department and I am happy to sit down with anybody and tell them how to improve upon what they're doing and where to find great resources. But I think it comes down to the administration trusting their teachers that when those teachers come to them and ask them for assistance and ask where they can go to encourage them to run with it, say here's where you can go and I want you to do it to have a. This is a professional development day for you. You're not losing any time. Go ahead and do this, and I think that'll make the make it so much better.

Liz: 47:47

Yes, trust your teachers and invest in your teachers, because that is, I think, the best investment is that, even if you're just giving a professional day, because everything else is is taken care of. I love that. Kristy, what advice do you have?

Kristy: 48:03

Well, I'm going to go ahead and answer about the new teacher, because I think we've seen a huge burnout rate. I don't think there's a lot of people, younger people, going into the profession as much anymore and there's a lot of challenges with that. And I think often it's because they don't feel supported. And I think in teaching in general, you know it's a very intrinsic rewards type of job. We don't tend to see those extrinsic very often. It's the reason why, you know, teachers go into it not necessarily for the money but for the passion and, I think, being able to keep that passion alive in a young teacher or when I say young, or maybe just new teacher.

Kristy: 48:41

In general, most people when they go into teaching, they're very excited about their craft and then they might not feel supported in some of the situations, whether it's parents or curriculum work or just behavioral students. And I think we could do a better job of being able to support those new teachers with mentors and really making it a priority to not only support them with curriculum but for student behaviors and parents. I think we all remember what it's like to be a student teacher and how difficult that was, but I think we just need to continue to lift them up and tell them that it's okay. It's okay to fail, it's okay to learn from your mistakes, and you know growth is part of this profession. But I also think having those tangible, quick ways to go back to what Deb was saying is chunking those lessons, giving them good instructional materials so they can be successful off the bat, I think can really be helpful.

Liz: 49:46

I love that too. I love that too. And if you are in a situation where you and your building maybe don't have somebody to mentor you, I think this is where you start reaching out and you can absolutely start with me at ASU, because I have a network and I can connect you to people that I know will want to help and want to mentor you. And that is a very genuine thing that I want to put out there, because my degree was in early childhood education and I ended up teaching eighth grade social studies and I had mentors at my very first school who, because I taught English and social studies and the English department chair said we will not let you fail, and having that support and then moving schools and having a really strong admin team got me to where I was. So if you are in a situation where you don't necessarily have that, start reaching out and if you need to start with me lizevansasuedu it's the easiest email ever, deb, we're going to end with you.

Kristy: 50:54

Oh, go ahead, oh sorry I was just going to piggyback up on that, liz. I think having a strong mentor is really key, just like having a strong mentor teacher when you're learning your craft as student teaching, when you're first getting into a building, and if you don't have anybody, it really is kind of a fight or flight method there. I mean, I remember for me even early on having Leslie be there to mentor me and encourage me, and hopefully everybody has that someone, because if you don't have that someone, I think that's where you are feeling you know failure and not support, and I think that is really key. So I think that's awesome that you kind of put that out there for people, because it really is just so important to make sure that people are feeling supported and lifting up and learning together.

Liz: 51:45

I love that you brought up Leslie. Shout out to Leslie Meisenstroud. She is actually the person who, in a parking lot at the district office after a district department chair meeting, asked me why I wasn't a national board certified teacher yet and really was that support person to be like? You can do this. And again, leslie and I knew each other from department meetings and became good friends. We ended up working together. But it's these little things, these little nuggets, that just end up. It can change the course of your career and it's such an important thing. Deb, we'll end with you.

Deb: 52:26

Well, I'm going to speak a little bit to both questions. I want to echo what Craig said about trust, but I also think that that administrators and policymakers need to listen to teachers and not just give them lip service like they are listening. Listening because we know our students and we know what our students need. And so please, please, please, trust your teacher's judgments, listen to them and find ways to support them. And then, on the flip side, with the new teachers and a piece of advice I have had the absolute delight this year to work with a first year social studies teacher in a tiny Iowa district.

Deb: 53:12

That woman has six high school preps a day and I just want to get on my knees and bow in front of her because she's not letting herself get overrun. We have decided that she will pick and choose each week one lesson that she's going to work really, really, really hard on to put into that toolbox and come back to next year. And she has just grown so much this year as a teacher and her skills as a teacher. A teacher and her skills as a teacher Content knowledge was always there, but putting it into classes of 45 to 50 minutes and chunking and looking at different activities. I look forward to the frantic texts that I get on a Wednesday morning when Tuesday didn't go well, and I don't mean that in a negative way. It's a way for me to reach out and help her.

Deb: 54:14

The Sunday evening email saying I'm going to try this idea. What do you think? She doesn't have anybody else, and so, because of my role with Morningside University, I have become that person for her and I just absolutely love working with this wonderfully talented new teacher. And so if you're an old person like me or you are in the process of ending a teaching career and looking at ways that you can continue to help our profession, get involved in some way to help these new teachers so that they can grow and they can bloom where they're planted and then they can be those people for new teachers when it's time for them to help out and reach somebody else.

Liz: 55:03

I love that so much because I love that that teacher trusts you and says like, oh my gosh, this didn't go well. Because I think sometimes we're you know, especially new teachers think everything has to be perfect. My lessons have to be amazing. And I mean, even in my last year of teaching I was 17 years teaching and I considered myself a veteran teacher. There were still mistakes. But you get to a point where, especially if you have good mentors and good people around you, that you can say like, oh, I had a lesson today. It did not go very well. Do you have any suggestions for me for the next period or for the next time I teach it?

Deb: 55:45

and I'm gonna jump in there, liz, with about, about being that sounding board and saying you know what I taught this one time and it just blew up in my face.

Deb: 55:55

They have to hear, as you said, it's okay to fail Because as a classroom teacher, you can teach a lesson one way in one class and have to pivot and teach the same content and the standard in a completely different way to the next class coming in the door. I had a young lady watch me teach several class periods in a row for a college assignment and when we sat down at lunch and we did a debrief, you know I wanted her feedback as well. She goes I watched three classes and you didn't teach it the same way three times and I said why do you think that is Because of the kids in the classroom. You knew what their needs were and you had to adjust and you just made those adjustments because you knew who was coming in the door, who was coming in the door. So you know, trust your gut, do the things that you know are going to work, be willing to fail and also, as a veteran teacher, be willing to reach out and help those first year young teachers so they can be successful.

Liz: 57:03

Absolutely. I just want to like stand and clap. Craig, deb, Kristy, thank you so much. Thank you for your expertise, everything you've done for the cohort, but this podcast has so much good in it and I can't wait to share it with pre-service teachers I mean just teachers around the nation. Thank you for everything you do in your state, everything you do for civic education. I cannot overstate how much I appreciate the work that you all do.

Deb: 57:36

Well, and we appreciate everything you have done and I know the experience for me has just this past year has just been amazing.

Liz: 57:48

So thank you for your help as well. Absolutely.

Kristy: 57:50

Way to be a rock star, liz, thank you.

Liz: 57:53

You are all rocks. It's easy to be a rock star when I'm surrounded by other rock stars. I I will say I did not create one lesson because, again, I'm not in the classroom right now and working with teachers, like you. Like, even right now it is it is dinnertime here, arizona, and I am going to have a hard time going to bed tonight because I'm so on fire right now, and this is what working with teachers does. So I want people to listen to teachers. Teachers are the experts. Listen to them, value, invest in them, and that's where the great outcomes come. So, again, thank you all three. I know you all have lives and so much to do and I really, really appreciate, even though you're running to karate or it's nine o'clock where you are, it is late, but thank you all so much. I really appreciate you.