Fostering Civil Discourse: Insights from Allan Carey on Cultivating Open Inquiry in Education

Civic education is more relevant than ever as polarization seeps into classrooms, impacting both educators and students. We discuss the importance of fostering civil discourse and provide resources for teachers to engage their students in meaningful conversations about civic topics while aligning with state standards.

• The state of polarization among students and educators 
• Alarming statistics on self-censorship in classrooms 
• The age at which polarization begins affecting students 
• Strategies for integrating civics into various subjects 
• Starting civil discourse in early education 
• Low-stakes ways to introduce controversial discussions 
• Resources available for teachers from Sphere Education 
• The importance of communication skills in student development 
• The Sphere Summit as a significant professional development opportunity 
• Overall benefits of engaging students in civic discourse

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Promoting Civil Discourse in Education

Liz 0:50

Welcome back to the Arizona Civics Podcast , where we're connecting with leaders shaping civic education and engagement . Today we're excited to welcome Allan Carey , a dedicated advocate for civil discourse and civic learning , as the Director of Sphere Education Initiatives at the Cato Institute . Allan leads efforts to support educators who teach grades 5 through 12 through programs like the annual Sphere Summit . Teach grades 5 through 12 through programs like the annual Sphere Summit , fostering discussions on civic education , civil discourse and the institutions that uphold democracy . His work helps teachers navigate complex ideas while promoting open inquiry and diverse perspectives in the class . Before joining the Cato Institute , Allan served as the Director of Education at the Charles Koch Institute , where he managed a range of educational programs for early career professionals , developed training initiatives for a network of over 1,500 employees and led faculty engagement . With a strong academic background , holding degrees in political science , history and philosophy from Ashland University , as well as a master's in politics for the University of Dallas , he brings a deep understanding of civic thought and education . Allan joins us to discuss the role of civic education in shaping engaged citizens , the importance of civil discourse and how educators can navigate these critical topics in today's classroom . Let's dive in .

Liz 2:14

I am very excited for our guests today . So a couple years ago , I actually went to an event in downtown Phoenix at the Old Phoenix Union School District , which is now a part of U of A , with the Sphere Education Initiatives , and it was my first time doing anything and really enjoyed the conversations that were had , and I wanted Allan on the podcast because we're in challenging times , we're in really polarized times and one of the things that I really appreciate about sphere education is the research that happens right , we're not just guessing . So , Allan , would you like to introduce yourself before we get started ? Yeah , absolutely so . Allan , would you like to introduce yourself before we get started ?

Allan 2:57

Yeah , absolutely , liz . Thanks so much for having me . It's a pleasure to be a guest on the podcast today and , like Liz mentioned , I'm the Director of Sphere Education Initiatives . My work here is primarily designed to help educators across the country those in middle school and high school , across subject areas and disciplines think about how we can promote civil discourse , viewpoint diversity in the classroom and overcome that measure of polarization that , in many ways , is not just ripping apart society as a whole but creating so many painful and difficult challenges for educators in classrooms all over the country .

Liz 3:32

And I love that because I think that sometimes teachers shy away from it because they don't have the resources to do that , and this is the time where kids should be using that in classrooms so that they can have kind of practice , almost right . I don't remember what Supreme Court Justice called schools the laboratory for democracy but , this is where these conversations are happening , so I'd like you to start with a little bit of the research on why this is happening .

Allan 3:59

Absolutely so . I'll point to a few things . I could go on all day about polarization and where it's coming from and some of the consequences we see , but one thing that I think is very startling for most people to realize the Rand Corporation came out with this great survey a couple of years ago taking a look at what's happening in classrooms , and it caused quite a stir when it came out and it said something along the lines of about 65% of educators have actively self-censored in the classroom in the last year when it comes to social or political issues in the classroom and again , this is not things that would be age inappropriate or be wrong for the subject area . These are like things that make sense Teachers are choosing not to engage in them . Why and part of the big problem is what we talk about as polarization , sort of that ideological distance between parties or that perceived distance between people . When it comes to politics in the United States we are very , very polarized the distance between Republicans and Democrats and conservatives and progressives . It feels like a yawning gulf right now between people and we see that impacting people in society .

Allan 5:07

There's this great study that was done a couple of times throughout history by faculty members at Stanford University who've taken a look at when does polarization tend to happen , and the first time they did it in the early 80s . One of the things that they found is that most polarization at the time was happening right around 19 or 20 years old . Right , you get to be in Dalton , you're in the world . This is sort of the post-Vietnam era Made sense . They revisited some of those studies in the last handful of years and what they found is that that age of polarization has just plummeted . So now the average age of polarization in America is 11 years old , so by the time the students are in middle school , they're already heavily polarized . Now , one thing to note about all that , of course , is this doesn't mean like deep researched , fundamental adherence to one party or the other and why they believe what they do . It's a my group versus your group and us versus them mentality . I don't know what it means to be a democrat , but I am one and I know you're bad if you're not , and we see that play out in a bunch of other things . Just to share one other example pew's done some fantastic research on this and , uh , two two recent surveys that came out in 2022 and 2023 really played the picture of what's happening here in uh .

Allan 6:22

When they ask people what's it like having a conversation with your partisan opponent , like someone who ascribes to whatever the opposite ideological uh piece happens to be , you go back to about 2016 or so . Most people would describe that as something like interesting or informative , like just over 50% Most recent versions of that it's completely inverted . It's about 60% refer to those conversations as frustrating and stressful . And they did another one where it said all right , you are a Democrat comparing to other Democrats or a Republican comparing to other Republicans . How do you view the other side ? On a variety of sort of moral characteristics , like being hardworking , intelligent , things along those lines , by overwhelming majorities in all of those cases , generally speaking , partisans review their antagonist as lazy , immoral , ignorant all of the worst attributes you can think about . And that's infecting all elements society , schools , classrooms , all the way across the board .

Liz 7:46

Wow , I really want to dig into the their political opposites as somebody who is lazy . We want them to learn from them and have conversation , so how can we do that in a manner that's beneficial to students but also in line with state standards , because teachers are required to teach state standards . We really want to make sure we're not just spending time on things that don't align with what they need to do .

Allan 8:10

Yeah , lots of good reasons to overcome polarization , and one of the just one of the biggest ones to hit before getting directly to your question is the we're really wrong about what other people believe . We believe extremities of what the other position is that are often vastly uninformed by what people actually believe , hold and do , and that creates a kind of distrust and hatred of the other side . So you're spot on with this notion of we've got to help young people break this cycle , because that's where it's happening first , and if you can create that healthy habit of openness and curiosity at a young age that continues throughout a lifetime , and you can break that cycle of saying anger in early ages lead to hatred and dissatisfaction later in life . So how do we do that ? Like you talk about , teachers , especially educators in public schools , have a variety of different expectations placed upon them around state standards , curriculum responsibilities , local school mandates for how they approach a variety of different issues . All of that can get really messy . First and foremost , double down on the state standards .

Allan 9:16

There's so many really interesting and important topics that are required to be taught across all subject areas and disciplines . Often there's this concern if I teach something , am I going to get fired ? Am I going to get demoted ? Am I going to get fired ? Am I going to like ? Am I going to get demoted ? Am I going to get hauled in front of the school board for these conversations ? If I do it , well , look first to your standards . What does your state say you can do when it comes to thinking about controversial topics Like , in US history , race relations across US history ? It is hard to tell the story of US history without digging into that , and every state that I'm aware of has key standards about history .

Allan 9:53

Teachers needing to touch on topics , whether that's slavery in the American founding , the Civil War , the impact of the civil rights movement and so on . Each of those provide really interesting opportunities to dig into hard conversations , but in a way that explores the fullness of what is a complicated historical narrative . It's never really easy , it's never really cut and dry . I think that's one key piece . However , one other recommendation , as teachers are looking to get started in some of these things it's put your students in a position to drive that measure of curiosity .

Allan 10:26

If they're asking interesting questions , if they're bringing things in about the world around them , that provides a really fruitful opportunity for robust , civil and viewpoint diverse conversation to happen . You can explore all sorts of interesting things , especially if you're not in , say , a social studies class . Or if something interesting comes up and you're a biology teacher , you're a chemistry teacher , you're a math teacher this is a great avenue . Or if you're a biology teacher , you're a chemistry teacher , you're a math teacher , this is a great avenue . Or if you're a coach or you advise a club . All these are opportunities for students to talk and discuss and engage , and can you be there for them as an educator to model the right way of engaging in those kinds of conversations ?

Liz 11:04

So kind of talking about that too . I think one of the things you know math teachers are like I don't teach social studies because there's sometimes an assumption that civics is a siloed thing , that you only teach one hour a day . If I'm a math teacher who teaches seventh grade , why should I include civics and what are some low stakes ways ? Right , because I don't want math teachers to think like well , I don't know history and I don't know politics , so how can I even have civil discourse in my classroom ?

Allan 11:37

Absolutely . I think I hold the position that all education is civics education . No matter what you're doing , where you are , you're helping young people better understand what does it mean to grow up , to become an adult , to engage in civil society in all the various ways that one does that , both in terms of the curriculum that you're touching on and the way that they interact with each other . Every class , almost without exception , I've ever had there's been an opportunity to talk , to have conversations , to engage in things , even if they're not just the core subject area .

Allan 12:59

I remember I had a calculus teacher where we had fantastic conversations , above and beyond just solving for differential equations , like lots of interesting things that you can do . But even more than that , there's lots of ways to tie the curriculum to current events , to things that are happening in the world , the pieces that make sense in the local community or the school . A math lesson is a great way to understand controversial conversations about things like where should federal spending go , or there needs to be a levy in the local community to support building new schools . That's a math conversation . How do you understand that , how do you approach it and how do you help people think it through ? How does our curriculum apply to the circumstances around them ? All of those are beautiful spaces to have those kinds of conversations .

Liz 13:42

What if I'm a second grade teacher and I just want to start having , like teaching kids kind of the rules of civil discourse , because kids don't just show up to school knowing how to talk about ? You know and for and for for second grade controversy might be like something silly , but why ? Why even start with ? You know even kindergarten , right , why start there and how ? How do we start there ?

Allan 14:09

Absolutely I . I love that . The earlier the students are , you get such a , you have a lot going right for you . One . They're not holding back . They've got thoughts they want to share . They want to engage . They don't know a great deal and so you don't want to have conversations that are well above their age level . But you can start by having thinking about how do I help them grow into being able to have hard conversations by being really good at having conversations . So start by getting them practicing on things that are sort of high stakes but low importance conversations right . So things like is a hot dog a sandwich ? Little kids love that conversation . Or a million other questions like does pineapple belong on pizza ? Which sports team are you rooting for ? Who's the better singer ?

Allan 14:58

Any of those opportunities where you get them talking , it's high controversy , so they want to jump in , they want to engage , but their excitement precisely allows for the like building up the muscle that it takes to have regular and convincing conversation . That's the best thing you can be doing at an early age If you get used to the idea . In class we talk about things that we disagree . We do so in a way that is respectful and follows norms consistent with the school and the community that we're in and I'm comfortable being willing to do it right from the beginning that builds and builds , and builds , so that by the time they're in middle school or high school and they're having more of these more strenuous or difficult conversations , well , they're well prepared for the easy part , right . Having conversations is just normally good and it's not a sign you hate someone , you can't be their friend , whatever it might happen to be . You can trust that you can have a conversation and it's not going to spill out into fights in gym class or whatever else it might happen to be .

Liz 15:59

I think that's an important thing too and I think sometimes it's important even to do those with high schoolers . I always started my APGov with my seniors

Fostering Civil Discourse in Education

Liz 16:06

with silly things like what is better dinosaurs or dragons , right , and it's a reminder and a refresher , these silly conversations , because when you're having , you know , a kid asks a question , you start to have kind of those harder conversations . It's easy to say , hey , remember our dragons and dinos conversation . We need to remember these norms . Maybe we need to add another one as a classroom community and go from there . So I love I mean civics does it starts in pre-kindergarten even , because they're a member of a community and they don't all agree on things . So it's a good place for them to have these practice conversations because then they're different classrooms , communities . However , we're noticing our school community , we're noticing , you know , kind of our bigger local community and our state community . So things like that are important and any teacher can do it .

Allan 17:13

Absolutely , and I will say this . There are a few things that impress colleges , universities , employers more than having young people who are starting out in that career path already having the really robust ability to communicate , to engage , to take feedback , to be able to do those kinds of things . So in the sense that it fills a civic mission of schools even more broadly by preparing young people for life as such , right , if I'm an employer and I have the choice between two young people one with just sort of stellar academic credentials but can't talk right , can't engage , is shuts down in those challenging environments , or someone who really can and can learn , I'm taking that second one every single day of the week . It's an incredibly valuable skillset to build in our young people .

Liz 18:02

Yes . So if I am a new teacher and I am looking for , what kind of resources does Sphere have for me , because I don't know how to do this . You know where would you point teachers to ?

Allan 18:14

Absolutely . Let me recommend three quick things . So one Sphere's website , sphere-edorg . We have a couple of hundred resources . They're all free . They focus on things like the pedagogy of civil discourse and free speech , talking about how to get started in those things . But then they also have a bunch of resources that are subject area specific on how you apply these things for social studies , civics , history educators , economics , english language arts We'll be getting into STEM soon so a bunch of really neat things . Again , all free PDFs , google Docs easily manipulable Use them as you need .

Allan 18:49

Two we do regular programming in schools and around the country and webinars for educators . So usually about once a month or twice a month we'll have one of those coming up Check them out . But the main thing that I want to recommend is our Sphere Summit . It's a fantastic program . It's a five-day full scholarship event in Washington DC . Cover your hotel , your food . There's a $500 travel stipend involved in it .

Allan 19:11

What we do is we bring a couple of hundred educators at a time out to Washington DC for five days of programming on the most challenging and divisive issues of the day Immigration , criminal justice , poverty alleviation , war , debt spending . Probably day Immigration , criminal justice , poverty alleviation , war , debt spending I'll be talking a lot about tariffs this summer . It seems to be something everyone's fighting about , but what we do is we bring scholars and academics , members of Congress and others together from across the ideological spectrum progressive , conservative , libertarian to model that measure of civil discourse on those challenging issues and have conversations with teachers . What does it mean ? How does it apply when teachers are treated as professionals and equals in the conversation ? Then we paired up with fantastic professional development , both from SWERA and from so many great partners like Bill of Rights Institute , the National Constitution Center , retro Report and others . How do you bring these ideas back to your school and classroom ? It's incredible .

Allan 20:02

Applications are open now . Please do apply . A couple of fun ones coming up this summer . One on the 250th of the Declaration of Independence is the theme End of June . It's going to be a fantastic experience , but I do encourage you all apply soon . Come on out , we'd love to have you .

Liz 20:17

And I do want to pinpoint . You did say scholarships . If I'm again , I'm a new teacher I'm barely making anything . I can go because the payments , like out-of-pocket costs , is not going to be a thing .

Allan 20:30

It's really negligible . Really , you're only responsible for getting yourself to Washington DC , and after the event you walk out with that $500 stipend . So , however , you best coordinate your travel to make that happen and I can assure you it is in fact possible to fly from Arizona to DC in under $500 .

Liz 20:54

It definitely is . I love this type of professional development .

Allan 20:56

I have yet to come to a SPHERE summit . At some point I will .

Liz 20:57

There's still time . It allows teachers to practice and to have conversations with other professionals who are in the classroom . And learning from people , again on all sides of the spectrum , is such a powerful thing because you can see it in action and then you can think okay , how do I bring this back to my classroom ? What does this look like in my classroom ? And I think that , again , the best professional development puts you in the seat of a student so that you get to learn . There are a lot of teachers out there that don't have political science degrees , they don't have history degrees and a lot of the stuff that's happening lately . They don't know what to do with , and so events like this five days is the perfect amount of time to have these conversations and to really put yourself in the seat of a learner , to go back to your classroom with .

Allan 21:50

I think that's key . As we approach these events , we look at a few things as being really important . One , we've got to make the opportunity cost for educators nearly zero . That is like cost got to be there . You respect them as professionals . You understand the demands on their time . But two , we also want to be putting it in an environment that it really drives professional learning for them . Sure , you're going to walk away with a bunch of practical skills and knowledge and resources , but it's about you and your learning experience and engaging in these things and honestly , this year , at a time when things seem so chaotic , what's happening ? They'll be able to walk away from these conversations with an eye towards saying here's what's real about what's happening , here's what's noise and here's how I can take the value of that conversation back to my students and community .

Liz 22:38

And I really love that because I think that , no matter what the challenge is because we've been through challenging times before , you know , we feel like we're in them now . They will happen again , but organizations , civic organizations like us are the ones that say like we're just staying in the course , right , we're going to , we're going to do what we do best , because that it almost gives a sense of calm to teachers Like I have a challenge . This is really stressful . I know I can go to sphere and learn about how to have you know civil dialogue and what that looks like in my classroom , and so , yes , it's a challenge , but I have resources to help me and to help my students .

Allan 23:16

It's a it's a fantastic time . I can't wait to welcome so many of the people listening to this podcast to come join us , because it's it is a lot of fun and if , for some reason , this summer doesn't work out for you , come back next year . We'll be holding them and then also doing events all around the country , like the one that you went to Liz in Arizona , where , partnering with schools and universities and teachers all over the country to try and bring these resources to as many educators as we can .

Liz 23:42

Awesome . I have one last question for you , because it's civics and history . Who is your favorite historical figure ? Somebody you find interesting , whatever that looks like , it's a hard question .

Allan 23:54

That's the toughest question you've asked me yet . This is a weird one bit of an oddball answer , but the first one that came to me a Greek figure during the Peloponnesian War by the name of Alcibiades . So Alcibiades he's an Athenian , but then he also spends at various points during the Peloponnesian War as a general and leader of the Spartans and for a period of time of the Persians , as part of the conquest that's happening on that side . It's just a fascinating archetype of well ancient questions of virtue and justice and loyalty . And what does that mean ? I wouldn't say a good person by any means , but a fascinating historical figure .

Liz 24:42

I think . Sometimes , though , we think we , you know , when we're asked these questions , we think we have to pick somebody who , like , espouses all these you know

Embracing Imperfections in Historical Figures

Liz 24:49

virtues , and what we often forget is these are humans , right , Even if you were to be like George Washington , it's like . Well , george Washington even noted his flaws , and that's the beauty of studying history is these people are perfect .

Allan 25:04

Absolutely .

Liz 25:06

Thank you so much . I am so excited to share this with teachers in Arizona , but also we have listeners from everywhere and I will put all of the links , especially the link to the Summer Institute , in our notes and all of your social contacts , things like that . But thank you so much , Allan . I really appreciate the work you guys are doing around civil discourse . It's so important and it's so helpful for educators and for students .

Allan 25:35

Liz again , thanks so much for having me . This was a fantastic conversation and really glad I could be here today .